Talk:T'vaoan

Merge with Kig-Yar?
I understand that this is a new and exciting addition and all, but I don't think it should have its own page. According to Bungie.net, the Skirmisher is still a Kig-Yar. If this is to be separate, we should split up "Banshee" and "Heretic Banshee" again.--Fluffball Gato 03:00, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone should also clarify to whether this is an actual sub-species or just a race...外国 人 (7alk ) 03:42, February 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Even if it's not a different subspecies, the Skirmishers fill a different role than regular Kig-Yar. We still have articles for different roles and ranks like Kig-Yar Ranger, Kig-Yar Sniper, Kig-Yar Minor, etc. Thus, this deserves its own article even if it isn't a different species.--Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 06:31, February 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Per Jugus, different rank and role than other Kig-Yar. Field   Master   Spartansniper  4  50  16:20, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

-They are nothing like the Kig-Yar. The Master Chief  (John)   (Spartan-117)  08:05, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Untitled. Luckily, Fluffball Gato made it a Title.
I actually don't think they look that much different from regular Kig-Yar. They're bodies are obviously the same with heads that seem more similar to H3 jackals than anything. They do seem to have shorter snouts and maybe sharper teeth, but not by much. The noticeable difference lies in the bushy, feather protrusions on their head rather than the traditional spines. Does anyone think this is more of a racial, regional thing more than an entirely different species? Nerfherder1428 00:03, January 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Cousins of the jackal" suggests they are further apart than just racial. Either the Skirmisher is a subspecies of Kig-yar, or they are species within a genus. Think of it like cousins of humanity. The nearest is Homo Sapiens Idaltu, while another close cousin is the Neanderthal.--  Fore  run  ner  00:20, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

We've always known that jackals had a bird like structure and probably evolved from something like a large bird. I think the skirmisher is a less intelligent, less evolved, and more aggressive version of the Jackals. The fact that they are much more like a bird just shows thet. Maybe they aren't extinct and are actually just a Covanant light infantry version of the Brutes. FatalSnipe117 21:09, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oooh, a new Covenant species! I'm eager to learn about their background and civilization (If they have one). I think we really overlook the fact that they're COUSINS of the Kig-Yar. I want to know how two intelligent races are able to co-exist and evolve alongside each other on the same planet. Are they economic like the Kig-Yar? Are they completely extinct, or just their troops? Think of it like this; What if Chimps were intelligent and lived alongside humans? Introducing a new species of Covenant with an unknown background is major, especially since we've never heard about them. If we had heard about them, I'd expect it to be in the novel "Halo: The Fall of Reach" or "The Cole Protocol" if anything. -Manzaross, the unoffical official Halologist

I'm excited too, Manzaross! If I had to guess, I'd say that they have a warlike, tribal culture and are much more aggressive than the Kig-Yar, but we'll see. I'm also interested to see how they fit into the Covenant hierarchy. The Elites are still my faves though! -User:Webspidrman 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Is it just me, or do they look like monster chicken-dinosaurs on steroids? H91 20:40, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

I think they look like velociraptors from Jurassic Park 3, you know with the feathers on top of the head, snout, muscularity, color, they work in packs for crying out loud! SalemElliot 20:22, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Weapons?
I did not see them holding any wepons in the picture.


 * You can see a blurry outline of the Type-25 DE Pistol.

ehhh the skirmishers look differnt i meen u can definitly see the resebleince but still they also look like dinos in a way
 * Well considering they are "Cousins" of the Kig-yar race, they could be a less evolved race considering their appearance and they prefer CQB style fighting which is something mostly any Jackal would avoid against a SPARTAN-II or a SPARTAN-III. This could explain the Carbine-Needler hybrid which in my opinion, is a crude hybrid the Skirmishers created to better suite their own purpose and since this design could be against the Covenant Heirarchy, The Prophets would banned this (not saying its canon, just saying). If you read about the Brute Spiker, you would see a small hint of my piont. The Brutes created the Spiker as their own crude invention but the only reason why I think it wasn't banned is because the Prophets would not want their own army of Brutes to berserk against them. Also please watch your spelling and sign your posts.--ASEC 03:14, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

They are actually shown in recent screenshots that they are weilding Plasma Pistols and Needlers. Halo 111777

Skirmishers wiped out
I doubt that they where wipped out but I do think that the Covenant kept them held back to help protect the Kig-Yar home world. Massacer.

It says in the article Bungie hinted that by the end of the battle of Reach the skirmishers were wiped out can anyone find proof of this such as a forum post a recent video interview or maybe something out of gameinformer, and if not it should be removed. Xxxjeffxxx 01:48, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

I found where they said it but I'm not very good at editing I have the link could someone put it where it needs to go. http://www.edge-online.com/features/halo-reach-tales-of-the-fall Xxxjeffxxx 05:45, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

They also mention this in the newly released article from Gamereactor, and even though Bungie did need to come up with a reason for not having them in any other games does anyone think it makes little sense that every single one was killed off at Reach? I would imagine there had to be some somewhere else at the time.Kalicokaiju 22:37, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

POssible that a cataclysmic event happened at hom, destroying them, and thus leaving those on reach as the last ones. Or, they might be newcomers to the covenant, and seceded? ~Enlightment~ ~Fighting Vandalism and Watching Unregistereds~ 08:00, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

I think the implication is that almost all Skirmishers were used at Reach, and that the process of its fall saw them wiped out by humanity's spirited defence. --  Administrator  Specops306  -   Qur'a 'Morhek   12:09, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

That's one way of putting it, "spirited" lol. What I could never understand was why the covenant seemed to find it easier to smash through earths defences, then reach, even though earth has even stronger defences? you'd think covenant losses would be catistrophic, but they don't appear to be. ~Enlightment~ ~Fighting Vandalism and Watching Unregistereds~ 13:21, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Fall of Reach happened before the Covenant made their way to Earth.Warhead xTEAMx 12:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

It is logical that the femals and children of them are on theire homeworld Eyan so only the entire skirmisher troops are wiped out. DP

I think that maybe the Skirmishers have a much smaller population than the Jackals, hence why they haven't been seen so far. They're rare and they're saved as special military units for the most crucial operations. If the Skirmisher units were small and saved until Reach, they might have suffered such heavy casualties that they weren't suitable for deployment again and still rebuilding their losses at the time of the Halo, Earth, and Ark battles. Flayer92 04:00, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Spartan 2095 22:11, February 1, 2010 (UTC) Well, my guess is that they weren't wiped out. Some may have escaped Reach and there were prolly some still on Eayn or travelling the stars as pirates, considering the race.

I agree with Flayer92 there would be way to many for them to be wiped out even at a huge battle like Reach.Disciple of the Covenant 22:17, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think that, as the above statement by Flayer92, that all the Skirmishers were deployed, however I think that as they haven't appeared after it, they might thought that the losses was so heavy that they didn't wanna be in The Covenant anymore, and that they left, and later turned to their ways of piracy. As the Jackals, and presumably the Skirmishers were mercenaries, I guess they didn't agree with the Covenant religion, so it's not hard to imagine they left, altough this is just specualtions. H91 19:40, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Sub-Species?
Based on the quote above, it seems that the Kig-yar species is composed of two race; the Jackals and the Skirmishers. With that said, they are not really sub-species. It is more of a differentiation in physical traits between the two Kig-yar races. Take us, humans, for example. Each race (Chinese, German, Indian, etc) has different physical traits... which lead to several stereotypes... anyway, what do you think?-  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 02:16, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

it's actually true, they are the same race, bungie said it, the pages for Skirmishers and Jackals should be merged 159.250.29.4 17:22, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it should be merged and the sub-species factor be noted on the Kig-yar page --<The Lord of Fanon. Praise My Name, And Behold All My Holy Deeds>> 22:48, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Reclassify the article?
It seems more and more like the Skirmishers are not really so much of a different species from the Jackals, not even a subspecies anymore, just big muscular Jackals wearing masks and feather headdresses from the looks of it.

So should Skirmisher be reclassified as a rank, rather than a species?


 * I think it should be a completely different species, not sub-species. The jackals aren't really the main species. They come from the same family, but they are a different species. For example, you don't say that tigers and lions are the same species. Teh lolz! Bionicle+Lotr 17:58, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * And no, they aren't big muscular Jackals wearing masks. The feathers and stuff are all natural. Teh lolz! Bionicle+Lotr 18:01, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

The article says that Jackals and Skirmishers are of the same species. That's closer than lions and tigers. It's more like chihuahuas and Dobermans...two very different looking dogs, but the same species.


 * So BAM! I agree with unregistered, nameless contributor here since he has a legitimate source. So can we really consider this now?--Nerfherder1428 14:27, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Unsigned unregistered contributor is I Flayer92 16:51, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer they stay as separate articles. I mean, if they were just Kig-yar, then why bother mentioning them at all? --  Fore  run  ner  17:29, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, chihuahua's and dobermans are both dogs, but they're different species of dogs. We don't call one "dog" and the other one "dog sub-species". One can't be the master racce. This is the same with Kig-Yar and Skirmishers. we know they're related, but I don't think we can sum up that Kig-Yar are the master race. This is just like saying one race of humans is a sub-species of another race, which we never do in real life. Teh lolz! <span style="color: lime; font-family: Halo3,Papyrus; font-size: 12pt;">Bionicle+Lotr 21:59, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, would they be considered as a race or a sub-species? Based on the description released by Bungie, it appears they are showing the physical differences between the two organisms and as such suggests that they are more of a race and not a species. But, again... I'm no biologist.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 22:12, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you're wrong. They're the exact same species, Canis familiarus. They are not separate species because you can breed a chihuahua and a Doberman. In this case Kig-Yar would be the blanket race term like the word dog, and Jackal and Skirmisher would be sub-sets like the Doberman and the chihuahua. I'm not proposing a deletion or a merger with the Jackal page, just that Skirmisher be reclassified as a rank, like Sniper or Major. It even sounds like a rank - Covenant race names tend to describe their place in Covenant society (Prophets, Elites, Engineers, Grunts) or just how humans perceive them (Brutes, Drones, Hunters, Jackals). Skirmisher really doesn't do either of these. As a combat rank name, on the other hand, it would describe their role perfectly.


 * So both the Kig-Yar and skirmishers are different breeds/races of a species that are unknown, right? Teh lolz! <span style="color: lime; font-family: Halo3,Papyrus; font-size: 12pt;">Bionicle+Lotr 21:39, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not that the species itself is unknown...they're just different forms of it. There's no dog that's simply just a plain dog. Kig-yar could be the term we're looking for to cover the whole species, with Jackals and Skirmishers being two subsets underneath it. 24.192.86.139 06:00, February 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Look Bioniclepluslotr, you seem to be extremely confused. Kig-Yar is the name of the species that both Jackals and Skirmishers belong to. That is a FACT, delivered by Bungie. By the modern definition, that would make Jackals and Skirmishers separate races rather than separate species, or sub-species, or however you want to put it. Neither is subordinate to the other one and there is absolutely no hint or mentioning of either being superior at ALL. Flayer and the other guys had several good points and analogies that make sense. Consider the Jackal like a Doberman and a Skirmisher like a Chihuahua. They are both of the same species (Perosus latrunculus, i.e. Kig-Yar), but are so different that they are additionally classified into different breeds/races. "Jackal" and "Skirmisher" are the very informal name for those two races among the UNSC. It is unknown how the two are differentiated among the Covenant, but it's assumed they are both just called by the species name, Kig-Yar. Better yet, perhaps the Covenant were just able to overcome the ancient enemy that is racism even though it obviously still plagues humanity well in to 2552. =D Nerfherder1428 22:06, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, are we all in agreement that they are races and not subspecies?- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 22:15, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Nerfherder1428, i don't think "overcome racism" would be the best choice of words for the Covenant, i mean maybe they did overcome racism at a species level, but not at an inter-species level, just see the differences of how grunts and elites are treated... @Subtank, at least i am--Fipas 09:15, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was a joke Fipias. But yes, I also agree with the proposal.--Nerfherder1428 13:19, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Black jackals (Halo: CE)
Might they be the black jackals from Halo: CE? Or might this be the explanation for them?

it's most likely coincidential, but interesting 66.59.49.88 19:50, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think they are Skirmishers. Skirmishers looked more like Crow-like aliens.--<span style="background:Black;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><font color="Blue">Shade  23:37, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

New weapons shown in ViDoc
I'm pretty sure I saw Skirmishers with Covenant Carbines and Beam Rifles, if we want to add those to the weapons list for this page.

Also unrelated, but I've been thinking about their Covenant species name and it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be Kig-something (say, Kig-Yan, for example). Flayer92 17:19, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Skirmishers are called Kig-Yar, see Halo: Reach section on bungie.net

Link: http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=enemies&cid=24609

Warhead xTEAMx 12:34, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

The Skirmisher was actually using a needler rifle, not a carbine.StalkerGrunt117 17:25, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

They also were using plasma pistol's,and they dont use beam rifles there a sub species specializing in close combat


 * Those are Needle Rifles (not Needler Rifles btw). <font face="Comic Sans MS"> 3vil  D3m0n   [[Image:3vil D3m0n's Emblem.jpg|21px]] <font face="Comic Sans MS"> Don't worry, I'm not really evil... 07:34, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

oh, sorry.StalkerGrunt117 14:36, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Merging with Kig-Yar
Based on the Reclassify discussion and the distinction between the Skirmishers and the Jackals provided by Bungie, it appears that the Skirmisher is simply a different variant of the Kig-Yar species, thus treated as a race rather than a sub-species, and that the Jackal is the more common Kig-Yar race encountered throughout the Halo franchise. With that said, the Kig-Yar article should have sections dedicated to these two races which details the physical and behavioural differences, how they differ from one another in actual combat and how they were integrated into a common unit after the event of Reach. Note that the description confirms that the Skirmisher is not a rank within the Kig-Yar Rank Structure.

Voting
- As per above.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 12:55, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

- I sort of agree, but then again, the Skirmisher is very different from normal Jackals in a lot of ways. It may not be a different rank, but they obviously behave and look very different from the more commonly seen Kig-yar. In my opinion, the Kig-Yar article should have a subsection for the Skirmisher race detailing the racial differences but the way I see the Skirmisher, as an enemy, is basically similar to a different role, much like Kig-Yar Majors or Kig-Yar Snipers. True, those are officially called "ranks" while the Skirmisher isn't, but simply because they are so different in appearance, behavior and tactics I think their role is synonymous to a different "rank". --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 14:57, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

- As per above. --Nerfherder1428 21:54, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

- Halo:Reach has not come out yet and we have a dearth of pre-release information regarding the Skirmisher as such, so I think it's too early to make this kind of call, as new information could force us to re-separate the articles. Until we get more information on their society, history, and bodily makeup, I'd say it's too early.Tuckerscreator 05:23, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

- Its a Sub-species, like Neanderthal are to Homo Sapien, but we do not merge the two races because they have their differences.
 * Obviously your biology knowledge is beneath everyone who discussed in the previous section. >.>
 * Neanderthals are considered a sub-species because of many reasons; mainly of their bone structure and genetic makeup. The Skirmishers however, do not have such things as only their appearances (Those feathers might just be a helmet) have been altered. This is like saying Skirmishers and Jackals are two races of the Kig-Yar species just like how the Chinese and the British are two races of the human species (homo sapiens). With that said, your opposition fails epically.<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 18:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually British and Chinese are nationalities not races. --Jaguartalon 06:45, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

- As per above. And above that. - Scot 113 16:52, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

- As per my comment/reply given to failing Gruntijackal.<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国 人 (<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk ) 18:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

- They are different enough to get their own article, surely. Oh, and Subtank -Ascension-: Homo neanderthalensis isn't considered a sub-species of Homo Sapiens, but as one of the numerous branches of Homo Erectus, which Sapiens also originates from (This makes the two "cousins" is a taxonomical sense). "Race" is a meaningless term in genetics, as the difference in DNA between anyone is 1% (no matter who they are), thus you and Subtank are two different races because you are two different people.--  Fore  run  ner  20:39, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think Subtank said anything about Homo Sapiens. But whatever. You apparently don't understand that Bungie has already stated that both Jackals and Skirmishers are the SAME species: Kig-Yar. Whichever way you want to put it, they are one species. There are no sub-species, or cousins, or anything. By definition, that makes them two breeds/races. Period. It doesn't matter if one has seven legs. Bungie has stated it is a Kig-Yar and we're going to have to move it on the Kig-Yar page. If we want to instead make the Kig-Yar page link to two articles on the races (Jackal and Skirmisher...and we don't) then whatever. But neither race is superior enough to hog the page to themselves.
 * And you're technically wrong Forerunner. Though race may be nearly impossible by today's standards to derive strictly from the genotype of an organism, it has almost everything to do with standard Mendelian genetics and heredity (observing the pheotype that results from said DNA). As heredity and the links between Jackals and Skirmishers is actually what we're talking about right now, your statement of irrelevance is, in itself, irrelevent. =D --Nerfherder1428 22:11, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think that, since they are the same species, the Skirmishers should have their own section in the Kig-Yar article, detailing differences between the more common Jackal etc. However, Bungie has stated this: "Skirmisher: The Jackal and Skirmisher are of the same species, with the larger, more heavily muscled specimens comprising grenadier-type units (Skirmishers) and the smaller, more lightly built specimens seeing deployment as dedicated ranger or sniper units (Jackals). This is a significant change from engagements prior to 2530 when mixed units were more common.". Because the Skrimishers are given a specific role in battle, and are a dedicated unit, they should be given their own article, but still be featured in the Kig-Yar article. Perhaps the Kig-Yar article should be changed to feature the Kig-Yar as a species, with sections depicting the physiology of the Jackels and the Skirmishers, as well as the difference between the two, and then made a dedicated article for the Jackals and the Skirmishers, which featured more than their physiology, such as role in combat, ways to fight, tactics used by the two etc. Warhead xTEAMx 14:09, February 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Way too early to do so. We should wait until the game comes out, then we could study them more.--<span style="background:Black;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><font color="Blue">Shade  16:47, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

- If we don't, Africans, Chinese, British, Koreans, etc. all deserve their own article.Lekgolo 20:21, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't they? Considering cultural heritage, society etc? Warhead xTEAMx 21:12, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

I never actually checked....Lekgolo 22:24, February 21, 2010 (UTC)