User:Forerunner/Forum:Domain overhaul - And what do you think?

Hi everyone,

As of recent the administration has engaged in a private discussion debate about moving Halopedia away from wikia, back to its original domain location, by the means of merging our content with halopedian.com. We've seen a number of reasons for this, which I will state below.

Pre-amble
For those of you who don't know about Halopedia it its early days, Halopedia was moved to wikia in 2006 due to server problems in terms of finance. Wikia has certainly provided us a stable host for a considerable number of years, for which we are all grateful for. However, with due respect to them, we feel that moving off back to our original site will bring us benefits that we can't have while hosted by wikia, for many reasons.

The why
As Porplemontage, the halopedian.com domain owner and operator has recently brought the site back up and running, the opportunity was seen to re-merge. Aware of what happened back in 2006 when he sent the wiki to wikia, he has been asked, and has replied with confirmation that he is positive he can support us as we currently are, based on our statistics, with the backing that he now possesses a much better server and server power in reserve.

So, what will change?

 * In terms of user rights, nothing . All users who have some form of user right (sysop, rollback, etc) will be guaranteed their rights on the other side. Additionally, this means that such members of our community will merge with their counterparts -- that us, users who may already hold rights on halopedian.com. But this will not have any negative effect on us as it is.
 * As our wiki will be independent, this means that any software updates or anything in the technical area will be handled by the administration, as opposed to a form of staff (in our case, wikia staff).
 * Pertaining to the above point, we will also have our own developer support, as I myself have seen to. Because things like addition of features, wiki software, etc would be developed only for the single wiki, it will be easier to base it on community input from that particular wiki. Therefore, community feedback and suggestions can be taken into better consideration for the developing in the technical area, which can effect just about anything in regards to the wiki.
 * Our articles, policies and guidelines will remain the same. Everything that we currently have implemented will be exported from here and imported to the new site. The move will have no effect whatsoever on any of the listed.
 * Elimination of most ads. As many of you know, wikia's income comes from the advertisements it hosts on its wikis. While a promise that halopedian.com will never utilize ads can be made, if it ever does, they will be much more sparse and only for logged out users.
 * Community-related: As the wiki will be an independent, standalone site, we can say that the community will be brought closer together. For the administrators, administrating the site will also be easier as they will have access to extra tools for further anti-abuse measures. These will not be used for the settling of disputes, for threatening of users, or otherwise for anything that goes against the administrator's code of conduct. Their use will only be for the security of the site, which altogether will be for the better for the community. As there will be a lack of outlanding-staff, the administration will, with any necessary assistance from developers, be able to handle queries ranging from the simple type that is often given by everyone, to the technical aspects. While not every admin will be able to help in all areas, all areas will be covered. This also will not make the admins higher up the food chain in any way than an ordinary user. Everybody is equal on a wiki regardless; admins are simply individuals that have extra trust.
 * Finally, I should probably mention about wikia's plans to enforce a new skin upon all of its wikis. Nothing wrong with that, right? While this is not the primary reason for the move, I can at least say that it has played as a factor. With due respect to the wikia developers of the skin, some of its changes are very sharp and dramatic. As I've already brought up with my colleagues, the 50% narrowing of article space, the complete redesign of the layout and the theme designer. I myself am part of the beta testing program, and with regards to the Wiki theme designer, after messing around with it for a while, I've found that it is very restricting and a somewhat ill-suitability for Halopedia's theme style. Moving over to our new domain means we move away from the new skin, and my sole personal opinion is such a move would be beneficial. Of course, this would differ from person-to-person as everyone has an opinion about it - similar or different, thus this reason has been kept as much of a minor factor as possible. On the topic of skins -- halopedian.com currently has the options of Vector (wikipedia's skin) and Monobook; we also plan to install Monaco when and if a move is made, so users will be given more options between their skin preferences.

Will we lose anything?

 * Attempts have been made to minimize losses as much as possible. As far as our unique features are concerned, the Social Profile extension has been successfully implemented along with the points system over at halopedian.com. The only feature that we will lose is the Blogs due to the code being unusable. While the forums can be used for anything forum-ish, we're hoping that we'll have an alternative as soon as possible.
 * All pages along with their history will be copied from here and imported to the new domain. This includes all articles of all namespaces, so nothing lost there.
 * Traffic: Wikia staff will not close down halo.wikia.com, for legal and policy reasons. While this means that traffic on the new halopedia will be at first, considerably less, this shouldn't be an issue once the dedicated community switches its involvement from here to the halopedian.com and the articles are implemented. After that's done, traffic there should increase to pretty much the same volume that we currently have here. To explain this a little, the goal is to have it promoted above the halo.wikia.com in terms of search results etc, while leaving halo.wikia.com as a simple branch-off with little activity. This in itself can be beneficial to both us and anyone who might pass by, which I can explain if anybody requests so.

So what now?
We, as a community, have come a long way. Everything's in its nutshell. Whether or not this will be carried out will largely depend on the input given out on this forum thread. We know that this is an extremely huge change, and expect that there will be a lot of mixed opinions about it and we want to hear those opinions from the community as a whole, as it is a necessity for a conclusion to be made. All input will be considered and if necessary, discussed. We've done a lot and feel we have done the best we can to make workarounds for issues that would arise from this. I'm happy to say that we can almost if not completely cancel out all issues we can foresee so far. The community is strongly encouraged to make any suggestions and/or questions for anything they are concerned about.

Regards,

-  Nìcmávr  ( Tálk  ) 12:13, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

Questions
''Have any concerns, questions? Anything not covered above? Feel free to ask here''

So do we keep our user accounts or do we have to make new ones?--Soul reaper 13:42, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

Where will we find the money to run halopedia.com? C F 0 0 1 14:59, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

What happens with the editcount? Apparently halopedia.org has an editcount of its own. What about the wiki editcount? I reckon it's going to become glitched? Are the halo wikia edits going to be removed or what?- JEA13  [ iTalk  ] 14:19, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Soul reaper: User account data will be imported to halopedian.com, so no, you don't need to make a new one.
 * @CF001: As far as I know, Porple imports finances from his other sites via ads. If halopedian.com has any of these, they will be much more sparse, and only for logged out users. Having stated that he is capable of hosting it, server operation is in good hands.
 * @JEA13: All of the wiki content will be imported from here. That includes the articles and their histories and by extension, editcount. Obviously it will add on top of the current editcount halopedian.com has at present, but that's no issue. - Major.png Nìcmávr  ( Tálk  ) 15:11, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I mean my personal editcount. Assuming I have 4000 edits on this wiki and 9000 general, what happens after the move? Does my general get reduced to 5000? Does it stay on 9000, but stops counting further halopedia edits? Does it stay on 9000, and keeps counting halopedia edits as it did with the halo wikia? - JEA13  [ iTalk  ] 15:15, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * That includes personal editcount. Since we're exporting data only from here, yes, you will have 4000 edits on halopedian.com plus any edits you make there. - Major.png Nìcmávr  ( Tálk  ) 15:22, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * And so my general WIKIA editcount gets reduced to 5000? - JEA13  [ iTalk  ] 15:26, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, your wikia editcount remains untouched. As said above, the halo wikia site won't be taken down by wikia due to their policy. Therefore the move would not have any effect on any of your wikia settings of any kind. - Major.png Nìcmávr  ( Tálk  ) 17:23, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'm on the fence about this, I see and understand both sides of the spectrum and am in more incline to agree with a move, but one nagging problem will persist: Funding. How how does the staff plan on avoiding what happened the last time. I often see domain switches happen that end in disaster. And asking, or relying on the community for funding, won't always go as well as you plan, or think it will. And I am wondering how does the staff plan on handling a worst case scenario if it happens.

My other question is what happens to this place. You mentioned that for legal reasons you, and wikia can't just delete this wiki so what happens to it? do you lock every article and just move on or can you hide all of the content and replace the entire page with a redirect or a blank "we've moved!" page? Durandal-217 23:30, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

Input vote
Below is the voting, as follows:


 * = In favor of moving to halopedian.com
 * = Not sure
 * = Against moving to halopedian.com

Support (8/1 sysops)

 * I'm all for this move, mainly because Wikia often changes things to what users don't want. Halo Fanon is a good example. Love is Noise  Love is Pain  Love is these blues  12:47, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Dude, do you even have 50 main space edits? pestilence   Phil,  pestilence!  18:36, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * She has 101 total edits and is an IRC op, she's fine. - Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  18:52, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe this will bring many welcome changes to Halopedia. My only concern is that the pages, which are over 5000 in quantity if I recall correctly, must be stored and transfered properly. The articles should be left up and running until we have secured them on the other site. Also, is it possible that we revert back to the old text editor we had before? The new one is far too complicated for someone who wants to get things done quick. - DinoBenn says "Fight to the End,  Never Give In"  [[Image:S4.jpg|18px]] 13:48, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems like the logical answer to solving this problem. Roy Mustang&#39;s mini-skirt 18:17, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jack Phoenix Proxy vote via Roy Mustang's mini-skirt
 * - As it is, I've always been in favour of having Halopedia on its own domain provided it could be supported. Though just as a note for those opposing, re-read what has been written in the reasonings and re-consider it; we're not moving for no reason. While many of the reasons are administrative ones, these will also have an effect on the community, which seals their importance. Frunner: You're entitled to your own opinion about wikia's theme, but I have to comment on point no. 2: Nothing stays the same. I too had the same concern but Porple has repeatedly confirmed he is this time (unlike 4 years ago) capable of supporting the wiki. Even if that's not enough to convince you, then how about the fact that he is currently hosting another 3 sites, one being mariowiki, which is twice our size? As for getting our users there: If the whole community votes on this, they'll obviously be aware, dedicated users aren't just going to get lost in the blue. Should this pass, anyone who doesn't want to move is welcome to stay, because wikia will not let the site go down. And for those who are opposing/supporting because of the skin, or just think we're the only site on the brink of moving away, check this out: http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Anti-Wikia_Alliance - Major.png Nìcmávr  ( Tálk  ) 18:58, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * - I wasn't really sure at first, both sides made compelling arguments, but I've decided to support this. Colonel Grade One.png Col.  Snipes  4  50 Colonel Grade One.png 22:03, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * -  5 əb'7 aŋk (7alk ) 22:20, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * --Mrepic 01:06, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does not have 50 edits--Emblem 1.jpg  Rusty   -    112   02:08, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Being a long time member, I support the move. And any idiot who seriously votes against this because of point or edit count should probably have their vote removed for blatant idiocy.

Neutral (6/3 sysops)

 * I feel attached to Wikia, who've been very nice to us considering all we've given them is ad revenue. Moving would be a radical change for the whole community. Besides, everyone knows Halopedia as halo.wikia.com now, including major Halo sites like HBO, and we might lose our relatively good standing in the Halo community. On the other hand, being Wikia's guinea pig and subjected to all these various updates has been restrictive for the Halopedia community, and it may very well be for the good of Halopedia as a community to move. As of this point, I am undecided. --Dragonc laws (talk ) 19:14, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now, while some people have good reasons as to why we shouldn't move, if things don't work out on halopedian.com we can always move back. Second Lieutenant   Keith Johnson  [[Image:7thHelljumpers.jpg|20px]] com link 21:10, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * - As per Dragonclaws...
 * - As per Dragonclaws. Habit and loyalty are two things that cannot be overlooked or underestimated. Over the years, we've become accustomed to Wikia, and moving would force everyone to get settled in a new environment. That being said, some of the concerns expressed by the supporters are valid, namely the new skin, freedom of the administration, etc. Noblelogo.png / /  STRYKER   [ COM  | <font color="SteelBlue">LOG/M  | <font color="SteelBlue">LOG/S  | <font color="SteelBlue">AAU/HUM  ] 02:36, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * - There's a real split here. As Dragonclaws said, Halopedia is known for being a wikia. Familiarity and all that. Also, it's nice to have a single account over all Wikia sites. Of course, an independant site could be nice. More control over every aspect of the wiki. A tighter community is always nice to have too. I think I could be satisfied either way. -- DKong Talk Cont 02:45, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * — Like Dragonclaws said, the Halo community knows us for our current domain. While a switch to a new domain such as Halopedian.com would be a smart thing to do when the release schedule wasn't so hectic...this is one retarded time to do it. Halo: Reach was just released, The Fall of Reach comics are in full swing, and the Forerunner Trilogy is due out by the end of the year. A simple button press that transfers all of our content from one wiki to the other doesn't necessarily mean a simple transition. While i'm definitely up for a domain switch if the Wikia Staffers stand their ground on the issue and don't intend to hear out the dozens of high-traffic wikis, i'm still open to see the new skin and the time they've put into it. Who knows...maybe the majority who haven't had a chance to use it will fall in love with it. Until the community as a whole can experience the new changes to Wikia and formulate an opinion, this proposal is extremely premature.

Oppose (13/1 sysops)

 * - I don't see "halopedia.org can support as the way we are" as a valid reason to perform such a big move. Looks more like another option to me. The section "The Why", which is supposed to explain the reasons the administrators are positive to the move, instead tell us what will change after the move, so I assume there's no actual "reason" for a move. And as such, I agree with FatalSnipe below, "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". - JEA13  [ iTalk  ] 15:26, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * - halopedia.org failed to survive because it had too many articles (1,200-ish) and views. It simply became too expensive to run. I've tried Wikia's new skin, and it's not too bad. If you don't want it, it won't be forced onto you; just change your skin to monobook. Also, we have to think: "how many of us would actually move with the site?" We lost a lot of halopedians in the great move of 2006; how many will we loose in the great move of 2010?--  Fore  run  ner  18:14, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * - There's just no reason to move the site. pestilence   Phil,  pestilence!  15:04, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * - I see no reason great enough for such a big change. Reddy645 18:33, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * - As per Forerunner. Sith-venator Wavingstrider Fett helmet.jpg ( Commlink ) 19:32, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * As per JEA13. -- Lord Hyren 19:43, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * - As per Forerunner. Kronos101 20:12, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know half of you are going to kill me for posting this in the oppose area, but lets just count it as a reply to every single one of you: JEA: The Why section indeed describes what will change. The changes themselves are mostly the positive reasons which some of us are in favour of the move. Frunner: To answer your question, "how many users will we lose?" We won't be losing any users, because we now have the technical measures that didn't exist back in 2006. Times change, as do people. And Wikia's new Oasis skin as a matter of fact will be forced into anonymous users, and Monaco will be removed entirely for registered contributors. Besides, not everyone uses Monobook. FatalSnipe117: You are right on this, but why don't you go tell that to Wikia? I'm sure they're willing to listen to you and cancel the forced Oasis skin and let Monaco stay and allow admins to customize the site CSS and JS to their heart's content. The restrictions of Wikia's theme designer and their new version of Terms and Use regarding wiki-wide settings are a factor that contribute to the proposal. While I'm not forcing any of you to change your votes, the reason why I'm posting this is to clarify some of the confusing parts of the proposal that have caused questions or misunderstandings of its concept. If you read it again carefully (and that also applies to those who used "As per"), all of your arguments are addressed in either the changes or are answered in the questions section. - Major.png Nìcmávr  ( Tálk  ) 20:36, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Forerunner: Just adding to what Nicmavr has stated... The new Oasis skin will force articles to be squished, with 50% of the viewscreen unused/covered with advertisements. I don't know what screen resolution you're using, but in my current view, it's not pleasing to read an article and having advertisements being in your face. To put things into perspective, log out right now and try reading a long article in Halopedia (with ad-block program disabled). That's how annoying and unpleasant it is with Oasis. Additionally, the skin would not be customisable as Monaco. This means no more Halloween/Christmas/New Year/Product Launch theme and no more customised skin for individual users. All you have is a pre-set skin and a limited skin customisation.
 * To everyone, I would like to point out that an encyclopedia shouldn't be filled with advertisements around articles. Advertisements are annoying and distracting. Plus, no doubt in my mind that Wikia will keep on adding more advertisements into articles for more profit in future updates. The alternative skin, the Monobook, is severely outdated and does not reflect the quality Halo encyclopedia that is Halopedia. - <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 23:16, October 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * As per The Forerunner Dman1reallyrocks 00:26, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does not have 50 edits--Emblem 1.jpg  Rusty   -    112   02:08, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * - This is the worst idea in the long, sad history of bad ideas, and I'm going to be there when you learn that it's even worse than taking dinosaurs off Isla Sorna. Commander Silver Leaf.PNG Kougermasters   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  00:54, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * - As the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I simply fail to see how anything gained by moving will be worth the hassle. --Emblem 1.jpg  Rusty   -    112   01:34, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * - Same as everyone above. Plus, I like how Wikia runs. The Gamer 13 01:37, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does not have 50 edits--Emblem 1.jpg  Rusty   -    112   02:08, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * <font color="LimeGreen">C <font color="RoyalBlue">F <font color="Salmon">0 <font color="Gold">0 <font color="GreenYellow">1 03:20, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * - Time and again this conversation has come up when Wiki proposed a change. Last time it came up when the points/rewards/social system of wiki was planned, and look, we embraced it so much most of you want to take it with you. Infact, most of you seem more upset about losing whatever things you've acquired here. And the complaints about Ads makes my physically sick. We complain about them hosting ads on basically a massive server they give us, free of charge. We complain about them, just wanting to be able to pay to host our articles. There's other things we'd lose with domain changes. Reliable service, most our articles, i imagine there'd be quite a hassle with GNU-stuffelz as well as losing most of our traffic. Is it really worth basically losing everything 'just so we dont have to look at ads and deal with new formats'. Just adapt and overcome as we always have. Ajax 013 03:26, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * - As per Forerunner. Noblelogo.png //<span style="background-color:White; color:MidnightBlue; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> SPARTAN-A110  <span style="background-color:silver; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">  talk    gallery  <span style="background-color:silver; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">  guestbook   03:28, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * How i see it, is that you guys failed in the past and all of a sudden after wikia picked up your pieces, held us the community on a reliable site that wont shut down due to money issues. that you suddenly make the whole community go back towards your old wiki? Why should we all its unfair! your reasons are total rubbish. sorry you have lost my vote. wikia has not screwed up for anytime soon and the community is much stronger here. moving to another domain will lose hundreds of good wiki editors. we gain nothing and fall back a few years making it back upto what it is today. Why Fix something when there is nothing wrong with it?theironpaw 03:31, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion & Comments
Discussion relative to the proposal goes below here

Other wikis are considering a move to shout wiki so maybe that could be something to consider. That way our accounts can still be linked to other wikis registered to it. Plus it's set up the same way as the current wiki is.--Soul reaper 13:42, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

Has anyone here ever heard the term "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it"? I'm just giving some input. pestilence  Phil,  pestilence!  15:17, October 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikia prefers to ignore it. Looking at the condition of Halopedia, it's breaking down slowly....- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 23:17, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

But there will be Wikia changes which will see certain things REMOVED, such as the shoutbox.

For more information on the pros and cons, see WoWWiki's Moving out of Wikia Proposal.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 23:21, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

I don't want sound pompous when I say this, as I have no idea if you have or haven't done this yet, but why don't you just ask Wikia to give the admins a higher degree of freedom? We are, after all, one of their largest and most viewed Wikis, and should have some say in what we do here. Tell them that you are ticked off with the changes they are doing here. Let them know that the community really wants their freedom. Let them know that the new skin SUCKS. Let them know that they've initiated a nose-dive. Anyways, not sure if you've come to that simple conclusion of communication, but you need to at least try before we do anything. pestilence  Phil,  pestilence!  00:30, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Administration Team has contacted Wikia Staff about the skin/system update and asked the wiki to remain free from the skin, and they kindly replied with a big no. Even WoWWiki, also one of Wikia's largest and most viewed wikis, is having the same treatment like all other wikis. There is no exceptions and it is inevitable. Trust me when I say this, it's not about the community that counts; it's all about the ka-ching!... - <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 00:38, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Everyone who is voting in favour of the move seems to be assuming that the current Wikia Halopedia will just give up, roll over, and slip silently into the night. But as you yourselves said, the Wikia version of the site would continue to operate. What if some of the users decide not to abide by your decision and follow you to the new site, but rather stay with the Wikia Halopedia? Well then we’d have two competing Halopedias, dividing the attention and efforts of Halo fans. How can that be considered good for the community? I personally will respect the decision which is made, and continue to be a member of Halopedia, no matter where it may be. Others however, may not be so conciliatory. Hell, this very debate itself has the possibility to become very nasty, and rip the Halopedia community apart.--  Rusty   -    112   05:12, October 3, 2010 (UTC)