Talk:Thel 'Vadam

Massive plot hole
The Package and the Cole Protocol take place in the same year, 2535. That makes no sense. How could he be both a Major and a Zealot Shipmaster in the same year? And just as importantly, how has no one else noticed this?

I agree. Also, Majors are GROUND FORCES. Shipmasters are NAVAL FORCES. Logically, Thel would be Field Master (if he were the Major from The Package, which he isn't, because he was AT THE RUBBLE AT THE TIME.) I don't understand why people say he is. They give you a 'link' that they say proves Bungie it, but it leads to his talk-page, but nowhere does it state that he is the same person. Anywhere. Why? Because the Major is a different person. That Major was dishonored. Thel led a live of honor and distinction up until the Alpha Halo incident. NOT THE SAME PERSON.


 * Maybe The Package was toward the beginning of that year and The Cole Protocol was toward the end of it? Also, Frankie hinted that the Shipmaster in the ep getting in trouble for his actions (losing the package, blowing up one of his own ships and stuttling half of another, running away from the fight at the first opportunity by jumping to slipspace and denying Thel (the major) the honor of killing MC).  This would open the door wide for Thel to be promoted: after all he almost killed a 'demon' single handedly...and would have if the Shipmaster hadn't interferred.  Zeno &#39;Ribal 15:59, March 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's still odd since it's mentioned in TCP that one of the Gray Team Spartans (don't remember who right now) was the very first Spartan Thel fought, since he was all surprised to see a human put up a fight and all. Guess that's another retcon, much like John's "first" encounter with an Elite on Station Gamma in Fall of Reach. Still surprising they'd just ignore that part in TCP deliberately - it's more likely they overlooked it. The Package feels oddly anachronistic in a lot of ways. --Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 16:16, March 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Aye, that's the only thing that really bugs me about the ep: the retconing of Thel's first 'encounter' with the Spartans. That book hasn't been out a year and a part of it has been retconned already.... Zeno &#39;Ribal 16:49, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Because Halo Legends is an abomination and likes to throw Halo canon out of 12 story windows. It also like to kick puppies and beat small children and elderly people.--Zervziel 05:44, March 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Shut up, it's canon and that's it. Get over it. - Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  18:22, March 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why don't you shutup you idiot. This is BS. I understand that all Wikis loves to follow canon to a T, but that doesn't mean people aren't allow to call things out for the shit that they are. Jesus Christ, people just don't know how to handle their own IPs sometime. Zervziel doesn't need to get over crap. 108.56.164.232 23:57, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, enough off-topicness. He became a shipmaster, that's a naval rank. So why did the package shipmaster say that he lost an entire battalion? For reasons that keep adding up, I think we simply have to do away with the idea of this major being the same elite as Thel 'Vadam/Schism Arbiter. Subtitles are added in post-production, with little or no consideration for actual canon. It's entirely concievable that the shipmaster's comment that the Major may someday become "arbiter" was taken out of context by whoever put the subtitles in, giving them the belief that he was Thel. Acceptable?Sorryaboutthatchief 01:33, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alas, while I like the idea, we simply cannot just arbitrarily decide what's canon and what's not. I personally think the idea of the Fleetmaster being Thel is a far better than the major domo, but if the Package says it's the other way around then it is until someone at Bungie contradicts that. I was hoping Frankie would step up to bat.--Zervziel 14:15, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Just a point: Halo: The Cole Protocol takes place in 2531. The Package takes place 4 years later in 2535. In 2531 Thel was SHIPMASTER. It wouldnt make sense if he was Major 4 years later, would it? 'March 30th, 2010'


 * Uh, no. TCP takes place in 2535, it was even confirmed by the author.--Jugus (Talk  | Contribs ) 16:11, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Bungie
Bungie acknowledges him as Thel 'Vadam in the blog: http://www.bungie.net/News/Blog.aspx?mode=news#cid19079

"Ascendant Justice published a new article examining the origins of Thel 'Vadam, better know to most as The Arbiter."

Event though it was decided on Halopedia that it was him, im just showing some new evidence so that we can be completely sure.

The blog post was about this: http://blog.ascendantjustice.com/thel-page-one/ FishType1 21:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Just goes to show that Halopedia is on the cutting edge of canon information.

Supreme Commander Picture
There is a picture of the Supreme Commander in the article from the graphic novel, and it makes evident that this is the Arbiter. Is there proof or confirmation on this? If the Arbiter was set to apBold textpear before the Prophets in the beginning of Halo 2, why would he appear in military armor, instead of his dress-attire?


 * In the Halo 2 special edition manual, there is a letter from the Supreme Commander of the Fleet of Paticular Justice. The things that he says imply that he is being held responsible for the destruction of Halo, so it's a logical conclusion. Plus, in the intro to Succor, it says that it could perhaps explain why 'Vadumee was acting familar with the Arbiter. --Dragonclaws(talk) 09:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

the arbiter isnt the supreme camander of the ascendant justice hes just a ship master before he becomes the arbiter.its in the books.


 * Actually, he IS the Supreme Commander. Its in the games. --  Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek   Honour Light Your Way!  01:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * And not to mention, at the end of the book you speak of, he's promoted Supreme Commander.

Plot Point
Anyone else think that this line from the Heretic Elite action figure could be relevant to Halo 3? Once more taking up the colors of their homeworld, they must seek allies amongst enemies, and strength from the very Arbiter of their doom. Hubert Cumberdale 19:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you think it could mean? -ED 04:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be a draw. If you read Halo: First Strike the Master Chief fights with (possibly) the Arbiter on the Bridge of the Ascendant Justice. And the MC only won that because the Elite (I said Elite because it may not be the Arbiter so it is easier to generalise) because he slipped on his own helmet and the MC got 2 Marines (Johnson and Locklear) to unload nearly 2 clips of AR ammo into him. And your comment on the Engineers ΜΆŜΤΈŖČΗέÏΣΡΈΤΤΥОΓΓïČëŗ is more about the shield strength than the actual armour itself, as Dr Halsey says in Halo: Fall of Reach that the MJOLNIR shields were an improved version of the shields that the Jackals (and therefore presumably the elites) use. Unsey 16:54 23 August 2007

active cam
Anyone find it weird that the arbiter, one of the highest ranking elites, has only a 6 second active cam. While other covenent memebers, even some grunts, have an indefinate active cam.
 * As it says in the article, the Arbiter wears ceremonial armor, which is a bit outdated but still necessary because it is a ceremonial tradition. -- ED ( talk )(gaming) 00:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but if every Arbiter dies in the line of service would it not be logical to assume the armor could not be recovered everyItalic text. With every new Arbiter I would think new armor would be needed or old armor repaired either which would provide opportunity to upgrade and improve with the times.

actually after an arbiter dies in the line of service the covenent atack the area where he died then retrieve the armor and repair it.

Umm...no. How would they retrieve Ripa 'Moramee's armor?Papayaking 17:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They didn't. - Lord Hyren 19:54, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding previous ranks
I think I got the whole rank thing figured out (but I could be way off):


 * 1) His rank at the time of the Battle of Alpha Halo was Supreme Commander.
 * 2) When Halo was destroyed, the higher ups demoted him to Zealot before deciding his fate.
 * 3) "Convicted" of heresy, stripped of his rank completely.
 * 4) Commissioned to Arbiter status.

Any comments? KWSN 05:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree -Spartan-016 19:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I you are a most wise worrior Kre &#39;Nunumee 19:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Gee, "worrior"? and well, the rank thing is common knowledge ΜΆŜΤΈŖČΗέÏΣΡΈΤΤΥОΓΓïČëŗ 11:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Either take the compliment or don't.--Kre &#39;Nunumee 23:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Your fight that has transpired seems strange and utterly pointless. Who replies in such a way???

Nerds like me, who know too much about everything we know. Spartan Andy-012

Involvement in Halo Wars
In a Bungie Weekly Update, Frankie mentioned that there's a side of the Arbiter that hasn't yet been revealed. Graeme Devine claims that Halo Wars will feature a great Bond-villain-style antagonist. Of course, his wording causes nausea to real fans, but; the Arbiter was a zealot while he was in command of the Fleet of Particular Justice; he's made thousands of personal kills. He was adamant about continuing his campaign against the humans in The Heretic. In Halo Wars, the Covenant is at its most "evil", of course, this means at their most savage. Could the future Arbiter have been the soon-to-appear Halo Wars villain? We don't know how long he was the Supreme Commander of the Fleet of Particular Justice, so, isn't it possible? It's not like Mr. Devine would just create an out-of-Covenant-character-villain ,(they're not evil, just mislead), unless he was someone people would definitely be interested in, right? And people would definitely be interested in the Arbiter as a bad guy. --Braidenvl 21:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

That is a very good thought, set about 20 yearsback the arbiter is probably fighting the humans, but there is a problem with that theory because alot can change in 20 years. If he is tstill the supreme commander then it would be probable that he could be a covenant ship leader like Captain cutter aboard The Spirit Of Fire. But age is another problem, how old would he be in the Halo Wars era? To young to be a fleet master. Would he even be in the war? Probably, as a lowley rank but that would be fun to fight the arbiter, my faveorite character. What would be cool is to have heros like in Age of Mythology, for the UNSC Master Chief (or some other badass spartan) and the covenant a arbiter (it dosent have to be the Halo 3 arbiter, a diffrent one) -X Gauz x 07:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I really don't see age as much of a factor, as Sangheili have awesome über-physiques, in addition to two hearts, which, in my opinion, would make Elites quite long-lived by human standards. As for your proposal of AoM-esque heroes, that's a very cool concept, (along-side, let's say, Truth, Rtas, Tartarus, Chief, Johnson, and maybe Cap'n Keyes, although Cutter is already a Navy leader for the UNSC.) Another Arbiter would be cool, too, but many fans would be disappointed by him not being the Arbiter. --Braidenvl 23:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

What'd I say!?! An Arbiter in Halo Wars! Yeah! I's not the former, or rather, future Supreme Commander of the Fleet of Particular Justice, but an Arbiter nonetheless! --Braidenvl 18:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see where the logic is here.... Thel was made arbiter in Halo 2 2552..... Halo Wars is 20 or so years before that

i agree i think this is where the other guys head blows up from said logic being in conflict with their own personal opinions on whatever this conversation used to be.

Guess what? ITS A DIFFERENT ARBITER. Look at the line 2 posts above. Thats line is true. Also, **SPOILER** the arbiter in halo wars GETS KILLED. Courtesy of Sgt. Forge. That Arbiter's name was Ripa Moramee.

Supreme Commander Picture
There is a picture of the Supreme Commander in the article from the graphic novel, and it makes evident that this is the Arbiter. Is there proof or confirmation on this? If the Arbiter was set to appear before the Prophets in the beginning of Halo 2, why would he appear in military armor, instead of his dress-attire?


 * In the Halo 2 special edition manual, there is a letter from the Supreme Commander of the Fleet of Paticular Justice. The things that he says imply that he is being held responsible for the destruction of Halo, so it's a logical conclusion. Plus, in the intro to Succor, it says that it could perhaps explain why 'Vadumee was acting familar with the Arbiter. --Dragonclaws(talk) 09:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Name Discussion
Can we be sure Thel Vadamee is for sure the Arbiter? Sure, he was given the command of a ship in the fleet of Particular Justice, but it never said command of the entire fleet. And to be honest, if you read the book, Thel had a completely different personality.

It's possible, but I am not convinced. If you have more evidence of this, tell me.

-Taco033.

I agree with Taco. While the revelations of The Cole Protocol are exciting to say the least, at this point there is nothing conclusive to confirm this assumption. I think we should rethink sticking a name to the Arbiter so brashly. Elites never appreciated people foolishly throwing names around.

Picaflor 22:11, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

When was his name revealed to be Thel 'vadamee? Omega117 06:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Halo: The Cole Protocol -- Councillor  Specops306  -  Kora   'Morhek  06:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * But from reading it, I did not find any concrete evidence that it is actually the same character. Such can be inferred, but still, I did not find any concrete evidence that shows that they are the same character. User0(contribs)(talk) 07:04, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you finished the book?  1st Class   Cadet   ONI recon 111  | [[Image:1227612553 First3.jpg|30px]] 07:39, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. The problem is that I saw this page before I finished it, so I wasn't really looking for anything that proves it. It is very likely that I missed something big. The only thing I saw that might infer that it is the same character is the stuff about the fleet of Particular Justice. User0(contribs)(talk) 21:36, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I didn't even get the book yet and it's up here,Thel 'Vadam,that just doesn't sound true,I don't belive it. Anyone got some proof?

It's not explicitly stated, however it is strongly implied and it is obvious he is the Arbiter, otherwise why would they include him in the book? Why give him the rank of ship master and put him in the book in the fleet of particular justice? 161.130.147.160 19:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

To establish a sense of continuity, using a pre-existing fleet to throw him into?

Having read the book, I didn't see any evidence that Thel and the Arbiter are one and the same.--Hawki 07:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Wait, if his last name is now 'Vadam, does that mean he's Halfjaw's brother/father/cousin/other family member?--macman392 2:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Halfjaw is Vadum, not Vadam. I'm sure how much difference that makes, whether its just a type or a completely different clan.-- Councillor  Specops306  -  Qur'a   'Morhek  19:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It said he was given command of a ship, not the entire fleet. Besides, Bungie may want the Arbiter to stay the Arbiter. I mean, look, they neither confirmed nor denied the Chief's name till the end of Halo 3, so maybe they want the Arbiter to stay "faceless" to make him easier to believe that you fulfill his role.


 * Well, actually we've known since The Fall of Reach that his name is John. I do think that we've just seen the beginning of the Supreme Commander's career, and its not inconceivable that he rises through the ranks. I have yet to read the novel, so beyond that I don't have input. -- Councillor  Specops306  -  Qur'a   'Morhek  08:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

We've renamed the page to Thel 'Vadamee, as per Halo: The Cole Protocol. But his current title is Arbiter. We have Rtas 'Vadum, since the character removed the 'ee' suffix. Since the character was stripped of his name, I believe we should again rename the article back to Arbiter. -- Councillor  Specops306  -  Qur'a   'Morhek  07:55, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If we changed it back, then that would mean renaming the Unnamed Arbiter article as to not cause any mistakes. Rtas 'Vadum was his original name before joining the covenant. Also, "Arbiter" was the unnofficial name. It makes more sence to keep it with his name. We moved "Master Chief" to John-117. If we changed this page back to Arbiter (Character)... other people who read the book would be highly likely to change it back.Forerunner 19:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

But shouldn't it be Thel 'Vadam, without the ee, because he is not part of the Covenant during Halo 3, like R'tas 'Vadum. I say we change it to Thel 'Vadam, and ignore the people who want the old name back, they just cannot cope with news... *rolleyes* --Lord Lycan 03:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The Arbiter has had his entire name stripped from him, rather than just renouncing the 'ee' at the end. That's the point I'm trying to make. It is certainly not because I "just cannot cope with news," the suggestion of which I find deeply offensive. My suggestion was made for accuracy, not because I have a particular opinion or agenda to push. -- Councillor  Specops306  -  Qur'a  'Morhek  23:01, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. F.h. - Flood Beware!


 * I don't think the title should be changed, but I think all the references to Thel in Halopedia should be changed to "Arbiter" because Master Chief's name is John, but he is referred to as Master Chief rather than John. Bioniclepluslotr  15:56, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read the cole protocol yet and i really want to be sure that thel vadamee is the arbiter can someone give me any evidence.( " crosses his fingers and says please be the arbiter please be the arbiter").Snore 03:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't this brash? Picaflor 00:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

There wouldn't really be a reason for them to mention the fleet or Thel in particular unless it had significant to the main plot, except to create a reason for all the things Thel did, rather than keep the reader going 'what the hell, what happened, why's he all scabby, who burned him?" But still, as for the attitude difference, I didn't see any difference. Arbiter is a big bad shangheili who feels that the loss of his honor has left him worse than dead, and Thel is a big bad sangheili who would do anything to retain his honor, I don't see a difference. Until conclusive evidence surfaces, we should either leave it as is, or an admin should should lock it down so no one can move it, if that's possible. Until then, every one just shut the hell up, there's nothing left to say except 'agree' or 'disagree'.--Kre &#39;Nunumee 23:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Guys this could be the halo wars arbiter we could of completly misunderstood.

OK, also 'it could be the halo wars arbiter.' Regardless, you do have a point, but I personally rather doubt it.--Kre &#39;Nunumee 20:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The Halo Wars one has distinct features that Thel doesn't have like weird mandibles and weird shoulders. And Thel was only just made the Arbiter, so he obviously isn't. FishType1 17:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

"I'm going to sum up my entire argument here. Thel, the character within the Cole Protocol, is not the Arbiter from Halo Wars, for those who haven't checked out the Unnamed Arbiter page. I have a feeling he is not our main hero, the Arbiter, from Halo 3 either. I can reason this because of the following:

1. Thel is extremely zealous. The Arbiter, even in his appearance in The Graphic Novel, was reasonable with Rtas and had a more moderate feeling. Although the Arbiter only said five or so lines in the Graphic Novel, I reason he is fairly moderate and follows the Covenant with reason and ideas and not blind faith. 2. Thel was given command of a ship and not the entire Fleet of Particular Justice. Although he could've gained rank, it cannot be assumed. Assumptions must have basis in solid fact, which Thel as the Arbiter does not. 3. The Arbiter seems to care for the Elites in the Halo games, whereas Thel has the knack for killing his own men and sending them to die.

To sum this all up, I don't believe we should make a large assumption. I would like to see Thel having his own page until solid fact confirms he is the Arbiter."

-Taco033

In response:

1. Thel WAS extremely zealous. The Arbiter seems more like he is loyal to his cause than zealous. One explanation for this is that the Arbiter pretty much nearly got kicked out of the Covenant. The only option for him was to become the Arbiter. 2. Taco's argument is a good one, and he's right. However, it is strongly hinted at in TCP that Thel IS the arbiter, and its too much of a coincidence for the future Arbiter AND Thel to be in the same fleet. If you read the all of the books, it becomes obvious that almost EVERYTHING in them are connected to the games, not just the basic storyline. In the Fall of Reach, it tells the story of the Spartans, why they were almost annihilated, and how Chief got to Installation 04 (I think). In the Flood, it pretty much is the book version of the first Halo game. In First Strike, it bridges the first game to the second game, and fills many plot gaps. In the Ghosts of Onyx, you find out why Chief is the last Spartan in the war and you meet the Sentinels. Need I go on? So, its pretty clear that many things in the books that are accepted as fact are never actually fully stated, but hinted at, just like Thel and the Arbiter. 3. Thel actually didnt "have a knack" for killing is own men and sending them to die. He only killed his own grunts and sent them to die if he was displeased. He did perform a sort of harikari on one of his soldiers. This is an "Honor Killing", like kamikaze, except kamikaze is suicide. Thel always cared for his Elites unless it prevented him from completing his mission.

In conclusion, believe what you want to believe. But this is my counter-argument against Taco.

-DSpec5

'Vadam not 'Vadamee
Shouldn't the article name and present version of his name be Thel 'Vadam? Like all other Elites he split from the Covenant, no longer in the Covenant millitary taking away the ee at the end of each last name. He's Vadamee in Cole Protocol, but at the most advancement of the story he is known as 'Vadam.


 * no. At the most advancement of the story (judging you mean the end of halo 3, not the trailers) he is known as the Arbiter.Forerunner 02:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but "Arbiter" is not his given Elite name. He is not referred as Thel during the game but he would still technically be Thel 'vadam. Much like the Spec Ops Commander loses the two e's in his name. It doesn't make any sense when we name the Half Jaw Article without the 2 e's but the Arbiter one with them. Oh and I forgot to sig --Halofighter92 20:24, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thel was forcibly given up his rights. He lost his right to bear the ee and his entire name. If this article were to be renamed anything...it would be Arbiter!Forerunner 20:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Really, he had to give up his name? Where in the games does it...oh wait, yeah that's right, the games are shit for canon. Yes, he's the current Arbiter, but what about the one in Halo Wars? What's he going to be, Arbiter 2? Since the Sangheili gave away the military "ee" suffix on their lastnames, and the current Arbiter is a Sangheili....he's name is Thel 'Vadam. [[Image:United Nations logo.png|35px]] General  Tony ,  Administrator of Halopedia  Talk  12/22/2008


 * Arbiter is a rank, not a name, so we wouldn't rename it to that, so we use his previous name.  1st Class   Cadet   ONI recon 111  | [[Image:1227612553 First3.jpg|30px]] 21:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

It's Vadam but the -ee suffix represents active military service and since the Great Schism elites have been dropping the -ee suffix to symbolize their separation from the Covenant. User:The Real Arbiter

Shield Strength
I just want to know how much shield and armor strength the Arbiter armor has? I mean in halo 2 they made it equilivent to the master chief's for gameplay reasons. But in Halo 3 the Arbiter's shield and armor strength vary depending on difficulty. I would say it's either normal of heroic. Normal because it seems most realistic strength wise and heroic because Bungie seems to like that difficulty as the way Halo is meant to be played. So any thoughts?Snore 03:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the shields that Thel has in Halo 3 has the correct strength. Bungie had to make his shield strength the same as the Chief's in Halo 2 so that gameplay can be fair. --Ultra Force 16:46, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Life as Kaidon
The section is absolute crap. Can someone with a book please groom through it and make it actually understandable, then remove the template?

Is Thel really the Supreme Commander/Arbiter?
I finished The Cole Protocol about a week ago, and I took the ending as meaning that Thel became one of the shipmasters of the fleet. There's no indication that he was the one who became Supreme Commander, is there? Sith Alchemy 101 11:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It implies it strongly. There are also some sections that when you read them, its almost as if they're shouting it out to you. FishType1 21:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Implied" and "confirmed" are two very different ideas. At this point, the idea that Thel Vadam is the Arbiter is fan speculation. However, because the Wikia isn't treating it as speculation, it has become fan fiction. SinisterSamurai 16:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It's also fan speculation to say that he is not. Spec Ops  Commander   Spartansniper  4  50  20:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I look at it this way: 'The Cole Protocol' takes place around 15 years before Halo 1. That is plenty of time for Thel to get promoted to Supreme Commander and thus become the Arbiter of Halo 2/3. Also, if Thel is not meant to be the Arbiter, why bother telling us what fleet he became a part of at the end? If you notice, we weren't even told what fleet he was a part of during the story itself. Zeno &#39;Ribal 21:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Height
the page says 8'6" however with the Halo Wars limited Edition the info cars say he's 8'1" ... also 7 years old..90.241.27.63 23:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you have the wrong Arbiter, man. Smoke My pageMy talk 01:28, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Cole Protocol Destroyed the image of the Arbiter
I read the Cole Protocol, and i refuse to beleive that honour-obsessed Elite in the book is the Arbiter. The Arbiter did beleive in honor, i admit, but Thel was obsessed. The arbiter was kinder, and knew right and wrong. There is no way the psychopath in Cole Protocol is the Arbiter. Timetogo309 18:51, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm still a little skeptical as to whether or not Thel actually is the Arbiter. I know there are strong implications, but there doesn't seem to be anything solid. If he is the Ariter, then I guess you could say that the Arbiter became more compassionate as time went by. If not, all the better for you. Sith Alchemy 101 22:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * So we aren't even sure that Thel 'Vadam is his name, though the entire article says it is? Is Halopedia a fanon wiki or something? --Odie5533 20:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * All evidences pointed out to Thel being the Arbiter.- 5 ub7 ank (7alk ) 20:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As not everyone has a copy of all the Halo books (me included), could you please cite a few representative passages that make it completely clear to everyone that Thel 'Vadam is indeed the arbiter. Thanks. --Odie5533 22:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's the big one: (from pg 349) '"The Fleet of Particular Justice?" Lak 'Vadamee asked. The old Sangheili walked along the keep's walls with Thel. Thel hada new shipmaster's cloak that tugged and kicked at him in the cold mountain wind. "I have never heard of it."
 * "It is a new reorganization of the fleets. Against the Sangheili Councilor's desires. They have given me a cruiser to command within this fleet."'
 * And this passage from page 342 I consider foreshadowing of his later fall: 'This mission was over, and Thel was grateful. He wanted a ship to command that was part of a fleet, not off on it's own. But leading a mission, away from the Prophets where his decisions could or could not risk their wrath...Thel 'Vadamee never wanted to be in that position again.' Zeno &#39;Ribal 00:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you please explain the quotes, and how they show that Thel is the commander that chased the Pillar of Autumn to Installation 04 and later became the arbiter? --Odie5533 04:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, for the first quote,some of this I mentioned in another comment elsewhere on the page. First off, that the author bothered to mentioned that Thel was now a part of ‘The Fleet of Particular Justice’ is telling, especially considering that the author did not even mention the name of the Fleet was in before (that I remember, I could be wrong here). Second, if Thel was not to be the Arbiter, why bother mentioning that fleet at all? Third, this story takes place around 15 years prior to Halo 1, plenty of time for Thel to get promoted to Supreme Commander and thus ‘be’ the one that chases the Pillar of Autumn.
 * For the second quote: In the book, Thel nearly got himself executed because he had to make decisions on his own without the guidance of the Prophets (Regret and Truth had conflicting objectives, Thel was operating under Regret, while Truth had his own machinations going on that directly conflicted with Regret’s plan). The future Arbiter, ended up in a similar situation (found the first Halo, but ended up helpless as MC managed to destroyed it), got into big trouble for it, was branded and made the Arbiter. If that ain’t foreshadowing…I don’t know what is.Zeno &#39;Ribal 05:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for explaining it. The first one seems rather weak; yes, he is a cruiser commander in the fleet, but he isn't the supreme commander. The second one is a bit better in foreshadowing, but it's still just speculation on foreshadowing. Is there no official quote in the bungie weekly updates or something that better proves he is the arbiter? --Odie5533 06:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally I haven't seen anything as such. Then again I don't honestly believe Bungie would come out and actually tell us something like that. As such, we can only go by what 'has' been released to us. Either way, unless Bungie comes out with something that contradicts this, I will continue to strongly believe that Thel is the Arbiter based on what I have read, as it seems logical to me. Zeno &#39;Ribal 15:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That it is logical is debatable. And the fact that it is debatable means it is speculation on our part. Unless it is a complete fact, it can't be asserted without being considered speculation. --Odie5533 16:21, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is a safe assumption IMO though, as there is no actual evidence that states Thel 'isn't' the Arbiter: only evidence that supports him being the Arbiter . It's not like how it was when people were still thinking the Arbiter was Orna 'Fulsamee (dispite the clear evidence that he is not!).Zeno &#39;Ribal 16:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Argument from ignorance --Odie5533 09:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So basically you are calling anyone that believes Thel is the Arbiter based on what little evidence we have to be an idiot then. How nice. Should more information come out on Thel, I will (can't speak for anyone else here, though I am sure they would too) reevaluate my stance on the matter. Until then, we can only go with what we have. Zeno &#39;Ribal 16:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No. The argument from ignorance is a common logical fallacy and it often takes an outside to point out that it is occurring. Simply because there is not evidence against him being the arbiter does not imply that he is. Yes, in the fan world we'd consider he is the arbiter. But from H:NOT, this place is not for fan speculation; it is for known facts about the Halo world. When I cite the argument from ignorance I am not saying you, or anyone, is an idiot. Please do not take it that way as it was not my intent. --Odie5533 23:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I get what you're saying, however some things we may 'never' get confirmation on. We got lucky with Rtas when they revealed his name in the Graphic Novel (and even then it wasn't within the story itself, but the intro). Actual names for popular characters on the Covenant side are rarely revealed, so can you blame us for jumping at any information that may even 'hint' at the true identity of one of them? *points at the feasco around Ripa* Zeno &#39;Ribal 00:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:WP:NOR anyone? Perhaps it would be better to split the article into Arbiter (character) and Thel 'Vadam, and then post that so-and-so (preferably a reliable source) said that the two are possibly the same. It seems like this is pure speculation, and quite possibly wrong from what I've read. If you guys accept fanon speculation here, then leave it as is. --Odie5533 21:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * H:NOT WE ARE NOT WIKIPEDIA. Kthnxbai.
 * Thanks for the link, though your all caps and insulting "kthnxbai" are not appreciated. Might I direct you to H:NOT point 1.1 and 1.2 ("Halopedia is not a fanfiction site" and "Halopedia is not a speculative forum"). A number of Halopedians consider the association between the two as speculation and for good reason. --Odie5533 22:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait...Thel, in Cole Protocol wasn't a psychopath...mercy killing your friend who is unable to do anything and wishes to die... ALL Sangheili were honour-mad. The other killing was to an attempted-assassin. He believed in honour, but he wasn't a psychopath.Forerunner 21:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, some people seem to assume elites are like humans, which they are NOT. Whining that an alien race isn't basically a human with a costume on isn't going to change anything.Papayaking 17:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Humans also mercy-killed, though usually under more... mortally-wounded... circumstances. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  18:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah...I don't think we mercy-killed because some guy hurts his leg. (Random guy 1: "Ow I twisted my ankle!" Random guy 2 stabs his head with a sharp stick.)Papayaking 01:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

please
Ban User:70.131.66.248 for vandalizing the page.--Jack Black 18:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Finally some proof!
"There are those who said this day would never come. What are they to say now?"

- Specops306

An interview with the author by a French Halo community, where the Arbiter is referred to numerous times as Thel Vadam, and Buckell fully accepts that, and even admits it was fun to characterize the Arbiter. So finally, some indisputable proof for the naysayers! -- ' Administrator  Specops306  -  Qur'a 'Morhek ''  Honour Light Your Way! ''' 20:31, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * * Cues the happy end theme to Return of the Jedi. *


 * Would it be good if you add the forum thread as a reference somewhere within the article? -- Drtomjenkins 02:08, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, that's good enough for me. Sith Alchemy 101 23:47, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

OMG YOU ARE SERIOUS YES LETS NOW END WORLD HUNGER ......I am a downer thank you Alertfiend 09:47, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Main Quote
I found a quote during my latest reread of The Cole Protocol that, IMO, fits Thel better than the one currently up.

From page 228: "It is a poor soldier who insists on seeing things not as they are, but as he wants them to be. One day reality hits, and his illusions fail him, and he dies stupidly. What honor is there in that?"

Then again, I AM just a n00b here, so I'm just going to defer to the more senior Halopedians' judgement on this. Dinosaur bob 15:41, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * 'Ey, guys, I think this one's pretty good. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  18:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

So this is important, how? User:The Real Arbiter

Aribter Mod
Does anyone know how to do that Naked Arbiter Mod in Halo 2 that that one guy used to get the images of the elite anatomy? Teh lolz! Bionicle+Lotr  22:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Arby starts out without the armor, in the cutscene, I think... I would assume that you'd mod it to cancel the cutscene, and then just never grab the armor? [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  03:56, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * But wouldn't that just skip the cutscene and do nothing to how the Arbiter actually looks in gameplay? Teh lolz! Bionicle+Lotr  21:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait, no, I'm wrong. In the Trivia for The Heretic, it says:
 * "By using modding tools, it is possible to see the Master Chief hidden behind one of the pillars above the Councilors. This is due to the fact that Bungie needed to place an avatar in cutscenes to allow for the AI, thus making cut scenes "unplayable" game play."
 * I think they might have also done that for The Arbiter. I mean, think about it: if they couldn't use the Arbiter as the "avatar" in The Heretic, why would they be able to use him in The Arbiter. The other clue? The existing picture of the unarmored Arbiter is taken from the third person, and shows him attacking. Here's what I think they did:
 * In Halo 2 Vista, they modded The Arbiter so that they start as Master Chief in a different location, and modded the unarmored Arbiter to have the AI of a typical Elite enemy. Then, they walked up to him and hit Print Screen as he began to flip out. Simple. [[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] DavidJCobb  02:48, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That seems like too much trouble to do that. In my opinion, they could've just swapped the naked Arbiter character tags and all associated dependencies with an enemy, say a Heretic Elite. They could've still kept the player as the armored Arbiter. But that's just what I see my modding Halo 2.Lieutenant Grade One.png  ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:#787878; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me<span style="background-color:#787878; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px">  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:#787878; color:gold; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 00:46, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

Comic
Does anyone know of the internet comic series about Thel and Rtas attack on a brute Chiftain?--Hunter on Steriods 00:57, September 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you mean 'A Sangheili's War is Never Done'? If so, that is fanfiction and thus non-canon. If not, well, I don't know of any other internet comic like that. Zeno &#39;Ribal 01:11, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Height changes
Can you at least post here for discussion before changing the height instead of randomly changing it?  Smoke Sound off! 17:42, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I vote we change his height to 7'10", as per the Encyclopedia. After all, we had no definitive information on his official height previously. However, I noticed that most of the Sangehili heights are still using the old 8'6" scale, despite previous reconing. If we are to keep the 8'6" base scale regardless, then Thel's height should be changed to 9'. Zeno &#39;Ribal 18:05, November 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * If it's in the Encyclopedia, then by all means, change it. Just say something when you do it (either here, or in the edit summary itself) so no one suspects false information or abuse of the points system. This will also prevent edit-warring.  Smoke Sound off! 18:07, November 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Added the weight and reference. Zeno &#39;Ribal 18:18, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Umm, their height is seven foot cause they crouch, when Thel mocks the enemy he is taller then John, Combat height is 7'2, height for real, 8 something.--Lekgolo 18:59, December 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Their avg height has been retconned to 7'4" per Halo Encyclopedia. Thel is 7'10" standing straight up, which would account for him being taller then MC (whom is 7' in his armor). Zeno &#39;Ribal 19:44, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Huh, thanks.--Lekgolo 23:51, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Thel 'Vadam or Thel 'Vadamee
In the article, he is still referred to as Thel 'Vadamee even after "Vadamee was stripped of his rank, title, name and honor, and branded a heretic for failure in safeguarding Halo." Is this a typo or an error? Killerbreadbug72 It's Vadam. The -ee suffix signifies active military duty. However, since the Great Schism, the elites have taken to dropping the -ee suffix to symbolize their split from the Covenant The Real Arbiter

Arbiter's color glitch
This happened to me only once, but in the level quarantine zone the arbiter turns red and I don't know how I did that. I have some screen screenshots if you want them. SUPERSYLUX 18:27, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Can I please see some? The other day, while playing a team match, I became "white team"... I don't know how. --Fluffball Gato 23:30, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Here are the links:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/File:Halo2_2010-02-16_19-11-05-68.jpg

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/File:Halo2_2010-02-16_19-11-25-79.jpgAnd as you can see, only the part of the weapons that have no effect are turning red. (Since I'm not english, I may have done some mistakes, and tell me if I'm wrong anywhere)SUPERSYLUX 18:31, February 17, 2010 (UTC) ya, just looks like an error when the game tryed to load the arbiters color graphics.Soul reaper magnum 15:42, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Might just be an error/bug in the game and not an actual glitch.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 18:35, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

The Elite major from the package
WTF he hasn't even been releaved to be the major plus unless they were planning on giving him the rank of arbiter years before i think that it should be taken off until VALID proof has been given to support it. 207.6.161.208


 * The Halo Legends subtitles label his name as "Thel" and I believe the commentary reveals him as Thel 'Vadamee as well. No one would have put that in if they didn't have proof. --TDSpiral94 03:47, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Theres subtitles on it ? i wanna see it Alertfiend p.s sorry i forgot to log in


 * You'll have to ask someone else to get a screen-cap for you. For whatever reason, my computer won't allow me to take screen-caps while a DVD is playing. Or you can check out this thread on HBO; you can infer that Frankie (Frank O'Connor) acknowledges that the Major is Thel 'Vadumee, even if he doesn't explicitly state it. By the way, it's very possible for this to take place in 2535, and it's also possible that because of the Fleet Master's actions in The Package that 'Vadumee was promoted to take his place. Frankie actually makes note of this and says:

"For all the comments made about the major's fate, it seemed obvious to me that the commander was the one going to be in hot water when he gets back to High Charity - package lost, two very expensive ships scuppered." --TDSpiral94 06:03, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Let us not forget that Frank O'Connor worked VERY closely with the anime teams and wrote the story. -Faison 00:07, March 5, 2010.

.......you do know that most of what he did was write most of the books? Alertfiend 06:25, March 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * He's only written one short story out of 16 in Evolutions. Which is one book out of ten. That's hardly "most". --TDSpiral94 06:03, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but Frank O'Connor founded 343 Industries which daily contributes to the history of Halo. But in the mean time maybe we should ask 343 just in case. Faison 14:10, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

To TDSpiral94 i have all the books besides first strike most of them was written by him and i am sure he founded 343 but bungie and that are not the same company ill check i would have edited this yes he did make it and at least half of the books unless there are WAY more then i have 207.6.161.208 07:52, March 6, 2010 (UTC) i keep forgeting to add the forth


 * Actually TDSpiral94 is correct. I have all the books and Frankie didn't write any of them beyond the short in Evolutions. I don't know what books you are looking at that claims Frankie wrote them, so here is a short list of who wrote the major books:


 * Eric Nylund wrote: The Fall of Reach, First Strike and Ghost of Onyx
 * William C. Dietz wrote: The Flood
 * Joseph Staten wrote: Contact Harvest
 * Tobias S. Buckell wrote: The Cole Protocol


 * You may want to check your sources, friend. Zeno &#39;Ribal 17:21, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

not those ones i meant like the story writing thats basiclly books wait how did we get on books Alertfiend 19:32, March 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just wondering, do you understand the sentence you typed?- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 19:36, March 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Seriously... you were the one that claimed Frankie wrote "most of the books," Alertfiend. I don't understand what you could possibly mean by that statement besides a book. So now what are you saying about story writing? What point are you trying to make exactly?--Nerfherder1428 21:26, March 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * You said 'books', Alertfiend, which implies the books like the ones I listed, which Frankie did not write. If you meant the storyline of the games or the Halo: Legends eps, then you should say so to prevent confusion. Zeno &#39;Ribal 22:28, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

YES ZENO YES thank you i got a little confused your the only smart one here who corrected me Alertfiend 09:26, March 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm just amazed he could actually understand you... :| - <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 20:11, March 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * TDSpiral94, you might not be able to take screen shots if your computer's like mine in that both the player and monitor are HDCP compliant. It's incredibly frustrating and I'm still trying to find a work-around. - Lord Hyren 01:28, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

One question I must ask is if Thel is indeed the Major from the Package, why then would he be surprised at Jai? He'd have faced off against MC before and his fleet would have fought several Spartans so Jai's appearance shouldn't have jarred him as much as it did. God, I freaking hate Halo Legends.--Zervziel 21:00, March 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is probably over-analyzing, but after fighting John he curses the Fleetmaster for ruining his chance at killing him. They fought, but not hand-to-hand like with Jai, and the duel with John didn't last long. So, maybe he didn't pay too much attention to their strength. Don't like that theory? Then it's just a retcon or a simple oversight. --TDSpiral94 06:04, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought it was assumed that The Package took place after The Cole Protocol in 2535 so that Thel had seen Jai for the first time. Also, I believe that's how it's stated in the reference's reasoning. -- Lord Hyren 00:59, March 10, 2010 (UTC) (forgot to sign edit)
 * I think that ref was made with the assumption that it was the shipmaster, not the major, that was Thel. If it had been the Shipmaster, the ep would have been set after The Cole Protocol. However, since it's been revealed that Thel is actually the Major, this ep must take place before the book. Zeno &#39;Ribal 01:21, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Who's Jai ? Alertfiend 04:33, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * He's Jai-006, a SPARTAN-II from Cole Protocol book. Just wondering, how old are you? {insert name  here}  04:44, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

I am 14 if you were talking to me Alertfiend 09:52, March 13, 2010 (UTC) Btw i accidently didn't sign in first time

14? Technically, I don't think you should be playing Halo, you're too young. xD Anyway, even if the subtitles did say Thel then it doesn't really mean its our Thel Vadam. I bet most of you know someone who has the same name. I bloody hate Halo Legends, its screwing around with Halo canon and adding things that really didn't need to be in there. Anyway, i was thinking why would've the Fleetmaster stopped Thel from killing S-117? Apart from ruining the entire Halo series, its un-Sangheili.XW3 AR3 L3GION 20:45, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Technically theres 8 year olds playing halo plus my parents knows i am mature enough to play it which i am .....Somtimes :).

Thel and Legends
The topic of Thel being in Legends has been discussed to death, and it seems to have been worked out already with a compromise that invalidates a previous canon source (TCP). However, I can't help but notice this one blaring inconsistency that Thel's appearance in The Package brings up: his duel with Jai-006. This was supposedly the first time he fought a Spartan, and the first time he'd ever even seen one. Yes, this has been brought up before. We could dismiss it as a simple oversight resulting in a retcon, or we could find a way around it.

The Major in The Package is never actually referred to as "Thel Vadam" in the subtitles, correct? Now all common sense points that when he's identified as "Thel", he's probably the same Thel as the one we know. Without any inconsistencies in the way, this wouldn't even be a problem. However, in a situation like this, we could devise a quite satisfying solution. That solution being, making another page called "Thel (The Package)". Like I said, identifying the character as "Thel" is a pretty strong hint that this is Thel 'Vadamee, but one can never be sure, right? Especially when it hasn't even been confirmed by Frankie or anyone else. Not to mention the fact there would be a huge inconsistency in case the characters were one and the same. For all we know, Thel could be a common Sangheili name.

In case it was obvious the Major was Thel, why wasn't he identified in the credits or the DVD commentary? I also find it interesting that even though Frankie replied to a thread discussing the matter on HBO, he didn't explicitly state anything, only throwing something in "for the sake of argument". He also refers to the elite only as "the Major" in another post. Why all the secrecy if the matter was so obvious?

To me, it seems like a simple mistake by the one who wrote the subtitles. It could be that Frankie's being secretive about it because he doesn't want to admit the mistake and tries to find a way to somehow work it into the canon. Right now, I can't think of any other explanation than Thel having a bizarre memory loss. Or that it's a different Thel. So, does anyone have any objections against splitting this and calling the Package Major article "Thel (The Package)"? The only thing we would lose is knowing what year the Package takes place. The truth is, we don't really know it for certain now either. Even if the major was Thel 'Vadam, he could've been demoted later, which is extremely unlikely considering his fanatical adherence to honor codes, and the fact he would've most likely killed himself for it. But it's a remote possibility. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 14:04, April 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we should make a new article called Thel (The Package). But I think that we should let some people give there thoughts of it aswell. -->Gunnery_Sergeant.png Master   Chief   Petty   Officer   John-117  ( Personal Favorite ). 17:25, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * One of the sources shown that the Major is Thel 'Vadam and that it was stated somewhere in the DVD commentary; whether this is confirmed or just a false source, I don't know. Could someone confirm this again? If it really has been affirmed that the Major is indeed Thel 'Vadam, then I'm afraid we should not create a new article about Thel (The Package). Again, it could be what Jugus've stated (Frankie not admitting the mistakes and trying to find a way into the canon) and that Thel's first experience with a Spartan has been retconned by 343 Industries. Retcon is quite common nowadays.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 17:31, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, whoever added that it was confirmed in the commentary is wrong, it was just subtitles. And in response to Jugus about Thel's rank, when I began to add the information about the Major being Thel, I gave a note about how Thel's appearance make sense about his rank. The Cole Protocol takes place in 2535, by which time Thel has just been promoted to Kaidon, him being a Major a short time beforehand makes sense, he didn't have to have been demoted. Another piece of evidence to suggest that the Major is Thel, is that he was said to be so in the Official Xbox Magazine Holiday 2009 Edition, on page 94. Although the magazine also claimed that UNSC cruisers were in the film, so this is questionable, but nonetheless, this coupled with the subtitles backs it up. About his encounter with the Spartans, I don't know, but I would think a retcon, seeing as conflicting with canon is what 343 do best. - Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  18:00, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I watched the DVD commentary (just so I could make this point). As far as I recall, the Major's name isn't mentioned at any point. In fact, they didn't even talk about the Major at all. The name "Thel" is only seen in the subtitles with no last name mentioned. I know my proposal may sound dumb, but it's simply a way to get around the irritating canon conflict (which, from an absolute point of view, makes it impossible for the Major to be Thel since that would contradict with TCP). There is always the possibility that this isn't the same Thel since his last name is not mentioned. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 17:58, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just "Thel"? So the referenced source is misleading then? *sigh*
 * I'll just remain ... can't really say much, though more in agreement with the creation of Thel (The Package).- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 18:02, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

(In response to all) - The reason why I am claiming that the Thel in The Package is not Thel 'Vadamee is:


 * 1) Frankie did not confirm it.


 * 1) He is just called Thel so why should it be Thel from TCP and Halo 2, 3.


 * 1) If he is Thel 'Vadamee then this should take place before TCP but then again when he fought Jai-006 he acted like he had never seen a Spartan before. -->Gunnery_Sergeant.png Master   Chief   Petty   Officer   John-117  ( Personal Favorite ). 18:51, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Cally, please be more constructive when contributing to discussions. No offense.
 * Regarding point 3; Retcons are fairly common in the media nowadays and it could be said that 343 Industries changed Thel's first experience of fighting a Spartan.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 19:00, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Subtank; the only evidence against it being Thel is his first encounter with Spartans, which is somewhat minor, and has most likely been retconned or neglected. - Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  20:15, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * But there is no evidence to sugest that it is Thel 'Vadamee. -->Lieutenant Grade One.png Master   Chief   Petty   Officer   John-117  ( Personal Favorite ). 06:53, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Read above posts. Think before you type please. - Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  13:18, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * But it should be a different article until there is sufficient evidence to sugest so.
 * (To any Admins) When can I start moving the information onto a new article? -->Lieutenant Grade One.png Master   Chief   Petty   Officer   John-117  ( Personal Favorite ). 16:43, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Package episode indeed confirmed that the Major's name is Thel; the only question is whether he is Thel 'Vadam or is he another Thel from another Sangheili clan. Now, another source, Official Xbox Magazine Holiday 2009, stated specifically that the Arbiter from H2 (aka Thel 'Vadam) will make an appearance in the episode; the only problem is that it also stated UNSC Cruisers making appearances, but it is possible that they mistook the unidentified UNSC/ONI starship for the UNSC Cruiser. So, in a sense, it has been confirmed that the Major in the episode is indeed Thel 'Vadam. The only problem resulting from this is the retcon produced as it is conflicting with Halo: The Cole Protocol (Thel's fighting experience with his first Spartan). Again, this can be disregarded as 343 Industries are allowed to redefine canon to an extent. All of these are sufficient evidence to suggest/confirm that the Major in The Package is Thel 'Vadam.
 * When it's May and majority supported, then you can move the information.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 18:38, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * But we hold certain canon sources over others. If it's true that the subtitles aren't clear or definite and that the only absolute evidence we have connecting the Thels is from the Official Xbox magazine, the contradiction that would be presented between the episode and Cole Protocol would be more than enough to squash this assumption. We have a chain of canon to follow and promotional materials are one of the lowest of the low forms of canon. Books are second highest. We need to remember that newer canon does not neccessarily mean better canon.
 * There are too many things against the speculation even besides the Spartan duel mixup. For one, the Major was said to have lost a batallion when Thel 'Vadum clearly occupied a naval position. Also, the long, detailed history of Thel spelled out in the Cole Protocol makes no reference at all about any shame, loss of honor, or scandals like the ship commander in The Package kept referencing. He made it sound like the Major was a coward and a slimeball that didn't deserve to live because of the dishonor he had brought upon himself. In all actuality, whatever he had done, Thel's reputation would have been marred by this beyond consideration for Kaidon in TCP. But that was never an issue. Another question remains about how the major even survived? Didn't the ship captain in the Package detach the lower half of the ship with intentions of leaving him behind? Yet somehow he was sucked up in to the main ship anyways. Each of the Thels seem to have completely different personalities, backgrounds, and futures. And then there's the whole thing about him facing a Spartan.
 * So yes, I feel like we should jump at any opportunity we have to disassociate the characters in order to preserve a semblance of continuity. Not because I blame 343 or Legends for screwing up canon; I can live with and accept that they are the deciders of canon; not us. But when a loophole like this presents itself and it is a semi-unconfirmed situation that is close to going both ways, the common-sense decision must be made. Even without any of the supporting details in the second paragraph, I wish I could reiterate more that the first point I made is enough to split the characters according to our canon policy.--Nerfherder1428 20:27, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

"If it's true that the subtitles aren't clear or definite and that the only absolute evidence we have connecting the Thels is from the Official Xbox magazine"

- Nerfherder1428


 * Well, we would need to confirm that by contacting Frankie or 343 Industries. Considering the current situation and as pointed out Dewback rancher and Tuckerscreator, the subtitles are being very clear as to who the Major is.
 * The XBOX Magazine, being a promotional material, is only supporting the fact that Thel is in The Package. The only contradiction they made was the appearances of the UNSC Cruisers (which happens to be an ONI starship) which is understandable as Halo Legends was in the developmental/production phase (Interview was made and released in incomplete development) when the XBOX employees interviewed 343 Industries. That contradiction can be ignored but the fact that they confirmed [and proved] Thel made an appearance in The Package makes the magazine a legitimate supporting source.
 * The Package is presumed to take place earlier than Halo: The Cole Protocol ("Thel became a Kaidon in 2535, and, during The Package, John is a Master Chief, a rank he was granted in 2535, at which time Thel was still a Major. By extrapolation, one can determine that The Package takes place sometime during 2535.").- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 21:19, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think you've misunderstood me Subtank. I wasn't referring to the UNSC Cruiser condradiction. That's irrelevent. If you read what I wrote again, I was actually referring to the contradiction between Thel not having fought a Spartan before TCP. I also did not dispute the legitimacy of the magazine as a source. I merely stated that The Cole Protocol, having said that Thel had never seen a Spartan before, would rank higher up in the canon ladder than advertising (the Xbox magazine), and therefore be the far superior canon. Following that logic, we have evidence that Thel Vadum is NOT in the package. If the magazine is the only absolute source, one cannot claim retcon on the superior literature canon (about the "Thel never fought a Spartan before TCP" issue). Having cleared that up, please reread my above statement to fully understand what I was trying to say.--Nerfherder1428 00:51, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

"Regarding point 3; Retcons are fairly common in the media nowadays and it could be said that 343 Industries changed Thel's first experience of fighting a Spartan."

- Subtank


 * She already explained that contradiction about Thel's first fight with a Spartan and how it has been retconned by 343i.
 * Regarding canon: Halo Legends is a media that is on par with the Halo literatures (neither inferior nor superior), as the anime series was supervised/developed/produced by 343 Industries and those under it, and should be treated as so. Treat it like a novel but animated. The Xbox Magazine, being a promotional material (described as "some is for promotional purposes or Halo ideas that were released in incomplete development"), will be considered an inferior canon. Because Halo Legends is of equal canon status with the novels, one can assume that the inconsistencies have been retconned. Note that Subtank mentioned that the magazine only supports the fact that Thel will be in Halo Legends. Sketch ist 01:05, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, going by that logic, what you say is true, but the Xbox magazine isn't the only source, the subtitles being what backs it up. In addition to that, why hasn't anyone mentioned the foreshadowing quote; "He is already shamed. His only path now is death, or Arbiter."? And before people point out that if it is Thel, he would not be shamed for another 17 years, Frankie hinted that the Shipmaster got in trouble over the whole incident, seeing as he stopped the so-called Thel from killing John, and detonated an entire cruiser just to hinder the Spartans. The Shipmaster was biased towards Thel, and he didn't even know Thel was about to kill John. Him being punished, and Thel's actions against the Spartans would very nicely tie in to Thel's promotion to Kaidon just before the events of The Cole Protocol. - Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  01:01, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Voting

 * - Per Jugus and... lol everyone . -->Gunnery_Sergeant.png Master   Chief   Petty   Officer   John-117  ( Personal Favorite ). 18:51, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * - As per Jugus and Cally99117 (MCPO 117) Lieutenant Grade One.png <span style="background-color:#787878; color:white; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px"> ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:#787878; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me<span style="background-color:#787878; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px">  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:#787878; color:gold; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 18:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * - For the reasons stated above. While one could say it conflicts with common sense, I'm having a hard time accepting the inconsistency until the possible retcon has been explicitly announced. --<font color="MidnightBlue">Jugus (<font color="Gray">Talk  | <font color="Gray">Contribs ) 19:12, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Never thought I would get that many lol. -->Lieutenant Grade One.png Master   Chief   Petty   Officer   John-117  ( Personal Favorite ). 19:27, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * - As per myself and everyone else who supports this. The book/Legends contradiction is a more protected canon than the Official Xbox Magazine article (The only absolute source that I know of that link the two) or anything but another book, game, or official product from Bungie or 343. The first Spartan encounter in TCP can't be retconned unless by a higher source of canon. But that's just not present.--Nerfherder1428 20:27, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * - I may be just the local n00b around here, but I like the implications it would have for the character as a major Arbiter fan, especially as it pertains to that final 'Were it so easy...' at the end of Halo 3. After all, the line would carry extra weight- he'd have even MORE reason to believe that the Chief's legendary luck somehow found a way to pluck his buns out of the fire at the last possible second, just like it found a way to keep him from getting wasted from Thel himself years before if the Thel from the Package and Thel 'Vadam are one and the same. And while I LOVE The Cole Protocol (my favorite Halo novel mainly because of the insight it gives into Thel's character and getting to see Jacob Keyes in action again), keeping this in just adds so much more depth to the character than it takes away. Dewback rancher 20:11, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * That piece of evidence is very minor. User does not have over 50 edits. -->Lieutenant Grade One.png Master   Chief   Petty   Officer   John-117  ( Personal Favorite ). 06:55, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * So is the discrepancy between The Package and The Cole Protocol, though I digress being a Star Wars fan during the era of TCW has sort of put the issue of retcons into perspective for me, so I find little things like this easier to swallow. Besides which, I have other reasons for believing The Package's Thel and Thel 'Vadam are one and the same- namely, what's the purpose of having the Master Chief- the franchise's main protagonist and thus the yardstick against which you measure others- lose to a Major Domo Sangheili unless it's to show he's one that is exceptionally skilled and make him stand out from the crowd? Throw in the name 'Thel', and who else are we supposed to think of if not the future Arbiter? I, for one, choose to believe this isn't a coincidence. Dewback rancher 16:29, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Vote is legitimate. That policy only applies to specific events.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 20:11, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * - I highly doubt ANY paid Halo writer would put the name "Thel" in the subtitles and not know who that name immediately invokes. Tuckerscreator 23:26, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * But the problem is that Frankie did not confirm it so we don't know yet.


 * Yes, but looking at it from HIS point of view, if he were working on Legends and the script clearly says the Elite's name is Thel', isn't his mind immediately going to jump to conclude Vadamee, then cement this issue with the screenwriter?


 * That and as per XBOX magazine. It takes MORE speculation to assume the Major is not Vadamee than to say that he is. Tuckerscreator 23:27, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, in the books and such, it is not uncommon for Elites to be refered to solely by their first names(Vadamee would be too long to fit in a subtitle anyway) and this is being looked at to change the MOS on Elite character pages.Tuckerscreator 20:06, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Look at what Jugus is saying. He is saying that Frankie doesn't want to confirm it because he doesn't want to admit a mistake. It actually takes more speculation to confirm it because only the subtitles show it so thats the point. But there is Han, Roe and Harka that do not have second names.


 * XBOX magazine needed to get their information about Vadamee being in Package from somewhere and the easiest thing is assume is that Frankie told them that when they discussed it. It's easy for minor book details to get overlooking in writing and Legends is full of contradictions. What's less complicated is to assume it's a overlooking rather than creating a whole new character for the short with the same first name. If Frankie meant it to be that way, it would be very easy for him to do so. After all, he already rectified one mistake that way with the time frame of The Duel.Tuckerscreator 20:07, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * On the part of Thel's supposed Out Of Character-ness in The Package, may I redirect you towards complaints that John-117 is similarly OOC in Halo: The Flood compared to other sources, yet we don't deny that's still the Master Chief? Put another way, if we were to have a Spartan-II who acted slightly different than we're used to the Chief acting, yet the subtitles called him "John"... well, if I didn't find gambling immoral, I'd put money on that source finding its way into the Chief's article in a heartbeat. Regarding the loss of honor, well, there IS an incident mentioned in The Cole Protocol, something about a mistake Thel made in the training ring leading to him being injured, his family having to hush it up. Of course, it was after his promotion to Zealot and Shipmaster, and it wouldn't have lost him a batallion, but we find out that it's only after that point, during his convalescence, that he becomes truly paranoid about making mistakes. He even spends his recovery period hand-making a doarmir-fur Shipmaster's cloak that he wears as a constant reminder that he can FUBAR things if he's not careful. There's still room for that incident to cause Thel to grow from the Major we see in The Package to the Zealot we see in action in The Cole Protocol- and given that The Cole Protocol conveniently doesn't have any dates attached to any of its events, we can put The Package in January, have Thel promoted to Zealot and Shipmaster in February, and have him handpick Zhar, Saal, and Jora, presumably the survivors of that batallion or other soldiers he's served with, and they have more than enough time to have 'countless enemies fall at their feet'- though it would probably only be during a single campaign rather than the original implications, but 343 Industries can definitely work this campaign into enough to wash away whatever lingering memories his people would have had of any shaming incident during the next ten months of the year, leaving the only stain on Thel's mind that incident in the training ring, since that truly was preventable. Its neat, concise, and- most important of all- more workable than most retcons I've seen my fellow Star Wars fans have to deal with by far. I mean, did you know that The Clone Wars has retconned Ryloth- a planet long held to not rotate at all, with one side in perpetual night, the other in blistering scorching heat, with only a tiny temperate zone- to rotate on its axis like any other planet? Compared to that, this is small potatoes. Dewback rancher 21:48, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I 2nd that, Dewback. Retcons happen all the time, but I'm sure this particular incident can be easily discounted as mistake.Tuckerscreator 04:07, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * It is may so I need help making the article

- As per Subtank and my several points above. -  Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  16:42, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

- As per myself.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">Σάπτανκ ) 16:48, May 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * WTF!? It is may Subtank and I had the majority vote until you two came along!


 * WTF indeed.
 * The recent conversations have shed some light on this issue.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">Σάπτανκ ) 16:55, May 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * You destroyed it when what you said was: "You can start moving the information on May." when now it is may and I created the page before you two voted which I think is cheating.
 * We were both going to vote anyway, we just didn't mean to leave it this long. And quite frankly, the points and evidence against the move are far more plausible and substantial than those of supporters. - Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  17:10, May 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. However I made the page before you two voted and I made it on this very day which Subtank told me and now she messed it up when I had the majority so why is it she made that comment!?
 * Perhaps you should read What Halopedia is not and take into account that Halopedia is not a democracy - decisions are made through discussion, votes simply help to drive that. - Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  17:19, May 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Note that I said "You can..." ;) - <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">Σάπτανκ ) 17:37, May 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * (NOTE: This is just about showing what Subtank said a bit wrong and I will put them in bold.)
 * "When it's May and majority supported, then you can move the information."

- Subtank


 * (May) You said May right? (Majority supported) Really? I thought What Halopedia is not said that Halopedia is not a democracy? (Think before you say.) (You can) What did you mean I can? (Because it said you can and she was talking to me and this is me so I should say I.) If you say that I want to know why you said it was not authorised because if it is not then it shouldn't be you can move the information. but it should be: an Administrator can move the information.. -->Captain Grade One.png  My Page  Talk Page   Contributions Page   All Edits Page   Email Page  ( Wiki Page ) ( Favourite Page ) ( Opinion Page ) 13:55, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * That is the general rule of thumb when proposing a merge (Just like "Ignore all rules" rule of thumb). However, this general rule will most likely be avoided when it comes to critical matters such as the one above. ;) - <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 15:41, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I said "Think before you say". And you changed it. Why is it that you said majority of supporters above then you say majority of evidence below so when you said that on May I moved the information before you two voted which changed it as soon as I was about to move the information and yo said it was not authorised but you said "you can" which is making me wonder why you said it was not authorised when you said before "you can" which made me think I could do it so say you will never say one thing but have the future comment oppose it. -->Captain Grade One.png  Userpage  User talk   Contributions   Editcount   Email  ( UserWiki ) ( Favourite ) ( Userboxes ) 09:51, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Think before you say. Was it me that said the move was not authorised?
 * General rules, like the "Majority supports ensures Article can be moved" approach, are largely unwritten and are not always successfully enforceable. They are treated something similar to conventions and mostly unsuccessfully enforceable.- <font face="Century Gothic"> <font color="#FF4F00">5 əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7 aŋk (<font color="#FF4F00">7alk ) 12:41, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you See the log you will know that you said it was not authorised (even though Halo-343 said it first but you when you deleted the page you said pretty much the same thing as Halo-343).
 * Are you trying to say that in the end the rule could not have been enforced? -->Captain Grade One.png  Userpage  User talk   Contributions   Editcount   Email  ( UserWiki ) ( Favourite ) ( Userboxes ) 12:57, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Infobox
Anyone else seeing the lack of a rank or homeworld in the infobox render? The info is there, in code, but it does not display in the infobox when the browser renders the page. I suspect this is because the classifiers are incorrectly spelled (like changing 'home' to 'homeworld' cuased the info for 'home' to not be displayed). <span style="background-color:#787878; color:white; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px"> ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:#787878; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me<span style="background-color:#787878; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px">  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:#787878; color:gold; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 03:03, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right about the misspellings/typos. Fixed them all, and the infobox should be shipshape now. Dewback rancher 03:26, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not fixed. The Homeworld works now, but the rank still doesn't work. Did you use the preview function before saving? Or maybe it works for you but not for me. I'm using the latest version of Firefox, 3.6.6 I think. Lieutenant Grade One.png <span style="background-color:#787878; color:white; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px"> ΘяɪɸɴF22  style="background-color:#787878; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  Me<span style="background-color:#787878; color:firebrick; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:24px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:24px">  Talk    Contributions  style="background-color:#787878; color:gold; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:24px; -moz-border-radius-topright:24px">  CAG 03:28, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I used the preview button, and checked it after saving the edit before posting that. Funny thing, the Rank section shows up fine for me on IE7... Dewback rancher 00:52, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Height Edits...
I think we need to do something about blocking edits to his height in the infobox unless and until they once again retcon Thel's or Sangheili as a species' height. I've only been here for about a week or two, and I've already seen about half a dozen edits putting his height back at the old 8'6" level, and frankly, it's getting a little ridiculous. Dewback rancher 17:18, April 24, 2010 (UTC) Patience, new guy, good intel is hard to come by these days and so is good help. The Real Arbiter